Comments on Bill the Lizard: Books Programmers Don't Really Read

Vedang, Thanks! "The Little Schemer" i...

2011-07-11T11:54:02.226-04:00

Vedang,

Thanks! "The Little Schemer" is definitely the next book on my reading list after I finish SICP. It's come highly recommended to me before, and I'm curious to see how different the teaching style is between the two books.

Great post and the discussion in the comments is r...

2011-07-11T10:18:50.038-04:00

Great post and the discussion in the comments is real fun.

Interestingly, I own all the books mentioned in your "don't read" list (except TAoCP) and I haven't read a single one through and through :). (I don't _claim_ to have read them either :P) This is because I treat them as reference books. (Want to brush up on Red-Black trees? Pull out CLRS) Why would it be wrong of me recommend it to someone else as an excellent reference book?

As far as book recommendations go, The Little Schemer has to be the most mind bending experience I've had. I came to it without any 'functional' background, and it was very easy to grok upto page 150-ish. The last 50 pages were like hitting a brick wall. It is one of those rare books which taught me a completely new way of thinking.

I have to agree. That intro to algorithms book is...

2010-08-19T01:17:03.462-04:00

I have to agree. That intro to algorithms book is amazing. It helps a lot to use in real life because these days almost all the algorithms described are already made in every major language thanks to the open source community.

I too had to read most of that book 10 years ago. Still, every year I reread sections of it just so I feel afresh with algorithm analysis. It basically covers what people should know about underlying data structures.

Yes, you can be a talented developer without reading this book. But it's like repairing cars - you can change a radiator without knowing how it cools down a car, but if you do this for 8 hours a day and every day, why wouldn't you want to know what's going on underneath the hood.

Slightly off topic - I just left a company that had an anti-CS attitude (although not voluntarily). I was often told my interview questions were too "computer sciencey" - whatever that means. Developers here often tried to hold an attitude that if you somehow learn "on the streets" that you're a more straightforward programmer. After talking closer to some of these people, you realize they're just being self conscious about not learning what are actually simple algorithms. There's no rocket science here - it's computer science and it's a lot of fun. People who don't learn this stuff only stay effective coders by becoming API memorizers and learn to solve problems with trial and error instead.

"Unless you have at least a Masters degree in...

2010-08-18T22:20:54.590-04:00

"Unless you have at least a Masters degree in Computer Science (and in Algorithms specifically), I doubt you've read more than a few selected chapters from Introduction to Algorithms"

Man, you must be hanging out with a crappy crowd. I read the book up to the last part for my intro to DS course (2nd year course for beginners) and will finish it's last part for my algorithms course (3rd year course). And that's just for my undergrad. In grad course for algorithms you use other stuff. The Intro *does* get used, but mostly for its optional sections which go into more esoteric subjects.

About the book itself - it is designed for beginners in mind. No prior knowledge is assumed. It's very readable and shouldn't present much trouble for people who are mathematically mature. The only real challenge there is doing some of the problem sets.

Larry Felton Johnson, Great interview! Thanks a l...

2010-05-29T08:44:30.379-04:00

Larry Felton Johnson,
Great interview! Thanks a lot for providing the link.

Speaking of TAOCP, I conducted a podcast interview...

2010-05-28T14:14:59.071-04:00

Speaking of TAOCP, I conducted a podcast interview with Donald Knuth this past Wednesday (it's posted at
http://www.blogtalkradio.com/larryfeltonj/2010/05/28/interview-with-donald-knuth-1 )

Volume Four is now available as a series of paperbacks, and the hardcover should be out by the end of the year.

I'll admit I've never finished reading TAOCP, but I've used it as a reference a good bit, and I do know what MMIX is :-)

I don't think I've read many programming b...

2010-05-09T13:59:57.212-04:00

I don't think I've read many programming books cover to cover. I usually don't read sequentially but pick out sections of interest.

I haven't got any books from the first list, but from the second I have TAOCP (vol 1-3 only), CLRS and the Dragon Book (green and red).

Why C++ for Dummies does not appear in the 2nd lis...

2010-04-29T02:28:01.533-04:00

Why C++ for Dummies does not appear in the 2nd list? Is good :)

Nowadays I'm so busy I barely have enough time...

2010-04-27T19:38:14.868-04:00

Nowadays I'm so busy I barely have enough time to read a blog article, let alone read a book or have a normal life.

I really want to take up SICP though as soon as I get more time....

Dan Lewis, Ah, too late! I'm already most of ...

2010-04-27T18:42:12.681-04:00

Dan Lewis,
Ah, too late! I'm already most of the way through the first chapter of SICP. I do want to read the whole "Schemer" series when I finish, though.

Which list would you add "Mastering Regular Expressions" to? :)

Anonymous, Beginning programmers are exactly who s...

2010-04-27T18:37:52.516-04:00

Anonymous,
Beginning programmers are exactly who should be reading Code Complete. It takes a lot of knowledge gained through years of experience and condenses it down to a book you can read in a few weeks. If you're an experienced developer, then I wouldn't be at all surprised if you already know much of that material. I'd be just as surprised, though, if anyone could read it and not learn something.

gigamonkey, Coincidentally, I just picked up a cop...

2010-04-27T18:33:31.220-04:00

gigamonkey,
Coincidentally, I just picked up a copy of your book about two weeks ago. If I ever decide to revisit this topic I think it will go in the first list. :)

I would do The Little Schemer first, then SICP. Th...

2010-04-27T16:17:40.166-04:00

I would do The Little Schemer first, then SICP. The Little Schemer is extremely interactive and covers some of the same ground faster.

Everyone should read Mastering Regular Expressions.

How about Refactoring, by Fowler? It is on my to-read list.

Wait programmers still read books?

2010-04-27T11:56:51.498-04:00

Wait programmers still read books?

Code Complete is god awfully boring. I wouldn'...

2010-04-27T11:01:51.458-04:00

Code Complete is god awfully boring. I wouldn't wish reading it on any new programmer.

When I interviewed Donald Knuth for my book Coders...

2010-04-27T10:55:19.972-04:00

When I interviewed Donald Knuth for my book Coders at Work, I asked him whether he thought most programmers should read his books. His reply: "I sometimes wonder if I can read them."

One not mentioned (that I can see) is Generic Prog...

2010-04-27T09:18:27.603-04:00

One not mentioned (that I can see) is Generic Programming and the STL: Using and Extending the C++ Standard Template Library by Matt Austern - almost a mathematical text in the way it builds up on concept after concept. Even if you never use C++ in anger, it will make you a better programmer, I believe, by making you think about your code, whatever language, with Generic Programming concepts in mind

I like GoF - read it three times, get more out of it each time

I've read about 50% of Dragon - never easy but worth it for the grounding

TDD:BE was great - truly made me a better programmer

I own TAoCP - never read it, tried, made my eyes hurt

I've read TC++PL - total idiotic

I agree, pragmatic programmer is definitely a good...

2010-04-27T07:48:53.350-04:00

I agree, pragmatic programmer is definitely a good book to read.

rbxbx, That's another book that I own a copy o...

2010-01-25T15:37:46.530-05:00

rbxbx,
That's another book that I own a copy of, but I've never read either. I'll add it to my list of things to read after SICP, and I'll try to remember to make a recommendation on which one should be read first.

I'm not sure which list it belongs on, but per...

2010-01-24T23:50:36.470-05:00

I'm not sure which list it belongs on, but perhaps The Little Schemer?

I've made it about halfway through (all whopping 200ish pages :\) and found it to be a fun exercise up to this point... maybe it's more one of those books that teaches you to think a certain way more so than directly teaching you CS concepts.

Word.

Jeffrey, I partly agree and partly disagree. I ag...

2009-09-22T10:56:10.087-04:00

Jeffrey,
I partly agree and partly disagree. I agree that you shouldn't be trying to stuff patterns into your design just because they appear in GoF. However, I also think there's no harm in reading GoF from cover-to-cover just to get an idea of what's in there. Anyone doing this, though, needs to pay particular attention to the sections on when a pattern is applicable so that they don't fall into the habit of "pattern stuffing."

I like the idea that the book reinforces what a developer may have already learned on their own. I've found that this kind of reinforcement learning saves me a lot of time that I might otherwise have spent deliberating over whether my design was good or not. There's always more than one way to solve any problem, but having my idea validated by someone else at least lets me know when I probably haven't stumbled on the worst solution.

"If more people took the time to read the ori...

2009-09-21T16:21:37.637-04:00

"If more people took the time to read the original Gang of Four, you'd see fewer people trying to cram 17 patterns into a logging framework. The very best part of the GoF book is the section in each chapter that explains when it is appropriate to use a pattern."

I always took the GoF book to be more of a reference for thoughts on OO rather than a "how it should be done" book. I've seen firsthand programmers trying to stuff patters they read about into their application rather than the opposite. My take was that it reinforces patterns that developers create in their applications rather than patterns developers should learn and use.

So yes, I've read it. However you may not agree that I understood it :)

I completely agree on what your views. Even for so...

2009-09-16T08:36:36.064-04:00

I completely agree on what your views. Even for someone with 3-4 years of experience like me, these books don't offer much. Most of the things would be either too obvious or will have already learned from experience by then. These are definitely for freshers. Still, Code Complete didn't disappoint me as much as Pragmatic Programmer did, don't know exactly why, even though that I read it BEFORE reading Code Complete.

Jahanzeb, I've heard more than a few experienc...

2009-09-06T14:29:49.815-04:00

Jahanzeb,
I've heard more than a few experienced developers express a similar feeling toward both The Pragmatic Programmer and Code Complete, and I can understand why. First, the two books are very similar to one another, so I often tell people that they really only need to read one or the other. If you read them both you're not going to find a lot of new material when you read the second one. Second, some of the advice probably seems pretty obvious to someone who has several years of programming experience. I'd highly recommend either book to anyone just graduating college with a CS degree, or otherwise entering the field, but someone with a few more years of experience might not find much new information in either book. To someone just entering the field, though, either book can ramp up the knowledge base rather quickly.

I'd recommend TDD: By Example to anyone interested in unit testing, no matter their experience. It starts out pretty simple, giving some fairly basic examples in Java and JUnit, but it ramps up fairly quickly. In the second half of the book you build a unit-test framework in Python.

Petzold's Code is a different kind of book entirely from the others. It starts out with the most basic computing concept possible, switches, and shows you how complex machines are built from them. I think it would be a very enlightening book for anyone interested in any kind of programming, or computers in general. This is one of the few books that makes it onto my "read it again" list.

Good post. Cannot agree with you more on the Desig...

2009-09-06T10:40:36.993-04:00

Good post. Cannot agree with you more on the Design Patterns (GoF) book. I've notices that most of the people who recommend this book haven't read it (or if read then only partially). TAOCP also falls in same category.
From the first list -1 for "The Pragmatic Programmer", this book is too much overrated (or may be I am too dumb to get what is special about it). And also I don't think most programmers have read "Code: The Hidden Language of Computer Hardware and Software" and "Test Driven Development: By Example". (or at least I haven't, and didn't have it in my future read-list too, though will revise my list now).